4e Infinite Loop

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:23 am

Apologies if this is old news, everything from Martial Power - which I only really had time to look at in depth at halftime today.

Further apologies in that book is not here and I don't have power names, just levels and effects:

Warmaster 30 lets you ignore the encounter cap on action points
Horizon Walker has only "ranger" requirement and not the mutlclass hosing fighting style prereqs of many ranger paragon paths.
Horizon walker 11 gives you back your action point if you take a move action with it.
Warmaster 24 lets your allies take extra actions on their turns when you spend an action point.

So at 30th level a Warlord multiclassed into Ranger with the Horizon Walker Paragon Path and Warmaster epic destiny gets to take an unlimited number of move actions on their first regular round action, and each of those actions they take close enough to their allies also grants those allies an equal number of extra actions once they act.

koz · Post by **koz** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:47 am

This is old news, Josh, but this is yet more proof that 4E was designed by idiot monkeys with typewriters.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:49 am

EXCEPTION-BASED DESIGN IT PROMOTES BALANCE.

koz · Post by **koz** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:51 am

Psychic Robot wrote:EXCEPTION-BASED DESIGN IT PROMOTES BALANCE.

STUPIDITY AND LACK OF DESIGNER EXPERTISE IT PROMOTES BALANCE.

shau · Post by **shau** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:55 am

You know, I can't bring myself to care about this.

It requires a specific combination and only kicks in at level 30. The fact that you have become completely unstoppable only gives you a more stylish end to the campaign. It's bad design, but nothing compared to 4th edition as a whole.

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:55 am

Caps lock it promotes bal...wha?

Okay, we get it. 4e was designed as an example of how not to do a rpg. What else is new?

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:00 am

Elennsar: The fucktard WotC dick-lickers fap to the idea that exception-based design promotes balance. They cite Magic as being good game design.

/face and /palm

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:05 am

WotC's idea of game balance seems to be that if someone who is an inspired genius plays the sucky classes, and a moron plays the classes that are level appropriate, everyone is equally unable to accomplish anything, including have fun.

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:07 am

"Having fun" is somewhat outside of game balance, at least for me. As I've said before, people have been playing fighters for years. I don't play RPGs for combat; I play them because I get to hang out with my friends and pretend I'm an elf. (That being said, game balance is a good thing anyhow.)

4e just ends up as being boring, though, and I'd much rather have broken and interesting than balanced and bland.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:15 am

Is it simply everyone getting infinite move actions? I can't really see that being very useful - good for moving around the world and sticking your middle finger up at time limits for travel, perhaps good for escaping fights you don't want and making your way past all of the guards and to the boss (providing no skill challenges get in the way), and an example of the game not working despite EBD, but not very useful.

Then again, "not very useful" sums 4E mechanics up as a whole.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:23 am

Koumei wrote:Is it simply everyone getting infinite move actions? I can't really see that being very useful - good for moving around the world and sticking your middle finger up at time limits for travel, perhaps good for escaping fights you don't want and making your way past all of the guards and to the boss (providing no skill challenges get in the way), and an example of the game not working despite EBD, but not very useful.

Then again, "not very useful" sums 4E mechanics up as a whole.

How about "just looting everything"? Even if you hold with any of the theories where you didn't fight so wouldn't gain treasure, you could likely just cheat at the vast majority of quest objectives.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:53 am

Koumei wrote:Is it simply everyone getting infinite move actions? I can't really see that being very useful - good for moving around the world and sticking your middle finger up at time limits for travel, perhaps good for escaping fights you don't want and making your way past all of the guards and to the boss (providing no skill challenges get in the way), and an example of the game not working despite EBD, but not very useful.

Then again, "not very useful" sums 4E mechanics up as a whole.

The Warmaster ability allows them to get an extra standard action every time you spend an action point.

You move around an arbitrarily high number of times, using an arbitrarily large number of action points, giving every single ally (but not yourself because you are not your own ally) an arbitrarily large number of standard actions on their next turn.

AKA, they serious just do 100+ at wills and all encounters.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:01 am

Ah, so either you loot everything that isn't nailed down (and some stuff that is), or alternatively you do a 3 day tap-dance in 6 seconds, and then all your allies unleash a hundred standard actions each. Cute. Sad that broken tricks like this don't actually give you world-altering powers still, meaning it doesn't compare to legal, non-loophole things that 3E had, but still cute, and that's just a fault of 4E.

Josh_Kablack · Post by **Josh_Kablack** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:07 am

shau wrote:You know, I can't bring myself to care about this.

It requires a specific combination and only kicks in at level 30. The fact that you have become completely unstoppable only gives you a more stylish end to the campaign. It's bad design, but nothing compared to 4th edition as a whole.

Except they intend the game to be playable at level 30.

"Brokenly Awesome" is cool at whatever your max level is. Actually infinite recursion probably shouldn't be available until max level + 1.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:18 am

Josh_Kablack wrote:Except they intend the game to be playable at level 30.

"Brokenly Awesome" is cool at whatever your max level is. Actually infinite recursion probably shouldn't be available until max level + 1.

More like never, especially with some enemies over the cap being one of the few things done sorta right in 4E.

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:27 am

Kaelik wrote:You move around an arbitrarily high number of times, using an arbitrarily large number of action points, giving every single ally (but not yourself because you are not your own ally) an arbitrarily large number of standard actions on their next turn.

AKA, they serious just do 100+ at wills and all encounters.

So, wait...I'm my own enemy? I'm indifferent to me?

Maybe if I play a split-personality I can claim myself as an ally...:ponder:

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Dec 15, 2008 7:35 am

Talisman wrote:
Kaelik wrote:You move around an arbitrarily high number of times, using an arbitrarily large number of action points, giving every single ally (but not yourself because you are not your own ally) an arbitrarily large number of standard actions on their next turn.

AKA, they serious just do 100+ at wills and all encounters.
So, wait...I'm my own enemy? I'm indifferent to me?

Maybe if I play a split-personality I can claim myself as an ally...:ponder:

Don't look at me. Official policy, explicitly stated in the PHB.

Absentminded_Wizard · Post by **Absentminded_Wizard** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:30 am

4e PHB, p. 57 under "Target" (bolding mine) wrote:When a power’s target entry specifies that it affects
you and one or more of your allies, then you can take
advantage of the power’s effect along with your team-
mates. Otherwise, “ally” or “allies” does not include
you, and both terms assume willing targets. “Enemy”
or “enemies” means a creature or creatures that aren’t
your allies (whether those creatures are hostile toward
you or not). “Creature” or “creatures” means allies and
enemies both, as well as you.

Yes, according to 4e RAW, you are your own enemy.

IGTN · Post by **IGTN** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:44 am

Absentminded_Wizard wrote:Yes, according to 4e RAW, you are your own enemy.

Well, I need to work to get on my good side, then.

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:09 am

That's...so crazy it turns back into awesome.

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:00 am

So according to 4e, every npc or commoner out there is an ally or an enemy?

The phrase "you're either with us or against us" comes to mind.

Which is damned silly.

koz · Post by **koz** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:15 am

A_Cynic wrote:So according to 4e, every npc or commoner out there is an ally or an enemy?

The phrase "you're either with us or against us" comes to mind.

Which is damned silly.

George W Bush being an uncredited designer of 4E answers many questions indeed.

ZER0 · Post by **ZER0** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:33 am

Going into my signature.

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:08 pm

Explains why the edition fails so hard.

Fwib · Post by **Fwib** » Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:40 pm

I wonder if there are any funny effects intended for use on monsters that would be hilarious to use on yourself, on the basis that you are your own enemy?